FTB: The Problem? with rubber boots.

[OranjeJus]

These obviously do not work as intended.

I mentioned this at the time to others in game when I did some testing a couple of days ago, but the rubber boots do not just greatly reduce fall damage. They greatly reduce all damage. I have tested this and know for sure they make you immune to:

Drowning, starving, all monsters in the overworld, lava and creeper explosions at point-blank.

All this, and they don't degrade so they last forever.

So, the question is: Should we be using them? I was happy being able to jump down my pit to bedrock. It's fun. I'm not so sure I'm happy being invulnerable because of a few pieces of rubber. (Ok, I'm ecstatic about it, but it really is gaining an unfair advantage.)

I mean, they probably work better by themselves than some hugely complicated to craft full set of powered armour.

Lets discuss so then if everyone agrees they are legit, I'll use them and enjoy the ride guilt-free.

Oddly, I'm actually in favour of house-ruling them out, so there is actually a reason to persue other (better) armours. However, while others are using them, I sure am too.

I'm suffering a dichotomy of opinion here, help me guys and gals



- OJ

[Hoathy]

You are correct, they aren't working as intended (Rubber Boots - FTB wiki). However this is not a problem unique to our server, others are experiencing it too. It seems that instead of reducing fall damage by a factor of 8 it does so for ALL damage. I had mentioned they stopped you from drowning somewhere, I guess this explains why.

[DaedalusAlpha]

If they are that overpowered I'd say they should not be allowed. Personally I don't use them anyway as I assumed I would get more armor from normal boots (guess I was wrong )

[OranjeJus]

Looking around, it might be a much better idea to craft the long fall boots. Hard to make but considering the benefit, it makes more sense than 6 rubber and 1 wool which is comparatively super cheap and easy anyway.


- OJ

[Sorontar]

Hopefully we will be updating the FTB server soon. Then who will know what they will do.

While it is not perfect, I have found that an iron chestplate has served me well. Up to a personal best of 20 XP levels so far.

Sorontar

[Obsi]

I suspect they will be fixed eventually - I can't imagine they will be left "broken" like that for long. (Much like how you used to be able to flaunt a bug in vanilla MC where you could drop a worn out tool and it would be magically repaired! )

So, the question is: Should we be using them?

My personal though is that since everyone using the FTB server has the same ability to craft and use them, no player is gaining unfair advantage on any other player if they use them. (unfair advantage is really if a player doesn't have the same access to something that is game changing like that). Much like how everyone has the ability to create a jetpack and fly about.

If you don't want to use them because you think they are too OP and take away a key element of gameplay, that's fine don't use them. There are the longfall boots (that aren't really expensive to craft), which reduce fall damage but not other damage. If you want to use them, I say people should be free to use them... it's not hurting anyone... (literally lol)

You still can cause creepers to explode, damaging property..... and you still receive knockback, which makes battling mobs a little more difficult than if you were completely invincible. So you're still going to want to fortify your buildings and keep things well lit.

Does it take away from the need for diamond armour? absolutely... but with the ability to automatically mine huge areas by plonking down a quarry, and the ability to make diamonds - the value of diamond armour is greatly diminished anyway..... I could craft myself a set for the first time in the entire 2 years I've been playing this game :P

If the people who choose to wear them finding their gameplay enjoyment increased, then surely that's a good thing to let them do it while they can?

Since we're not a PVP server, if someone else has them on and you don't - your game isn't really being negatively impacted upon.... other than if you choose not to wear them, and you fall to your death or get killed by a mob, then you've disadvantaged yourself by not using them. But that's your choice. Surely people should have the choice if they use something like this or not... when it's not hurting anyone else if they do choose to use it.

If we were to ban then, what's to stop people using them when they think nobody will notice anyway? That would be difficult to police.

I say enjoy them while you can (if you want to)....

While it is not perfect, I have found that an iron chestplate has served me well. Up to a personal best of 20 XP levels so far.

I managed to clear out an underground labyrinth in the Twilight and defeat the boss with only the armour pieces I found in the chests there (and no rubber boots) - and even survived long enough to enchant 2 swords!)

There's something very satisifying about risking death to explore something new

[OranjeJus]

Well, that depends on your version of expensive =) I was comparing rubber and wool, vs obsidian and iron. And you need diamonds to be able to mine the obsidian. The rubber boots, you just need a rubber tree and 8 pieces of cobblestone. Oh, and 1 sheep.

But I believe the unfair advantage was more about the ingame advantage, rather than comparing to other players. For example, several others have solar panel setups and have solved their power requirements handily. This is a fair advantage because of the steps and time involved to get there. Rubber boots are just unfair. In very short order, you become immune to damage and can stockpile your exp for enchanting and other things easily.

In addition to this, without the bug being common knowledge, some might never get around to making a pair of rubber boots because they think it's only for falling and they are not playing around dangerous drops. Thus, they remain vulnerable while others like myself are rocking the god mode.... But hopefully this thread will help spread the knowledge =)

Well, I think I'll just make some longfall boots and fix the issue for myself anyway. I know I said I would keep using them, but really I would like combat to be a bit more spicy. Maybe I'll just use my rubber boots while they are bugged for when I'm working on my home plot construction and then play 'fair' when I go exploring/prospecting.

So hey, for anyone else out there, if you're newer to the server with no obsidian yet I have plenty to spare so can make long fall boots if you'd like to make the switch from rubber.


- OJ

[Obsi]

Rubber boots are easier to craft for sure, but you don't have to have played for very long before iron and obsidian are plentiful enough that it's a non-issue (someone built a massive tower from obsidian!). It's not like they require diamond blocks or something. That's what I meant. You'd said they were hard to make, but they aren't really... I'm sure anyone on the server would be willing to help anyone with iron/obsidian who didn't have enough to make a pair.

In very short order, you become immune to damage and can stockpile your exp for enchanting and other things easily.

On the Frontier server we had a enderman XP farm. You could go from nothing to level 50 in about 5 mins, with no fear of damage at all. Far quicker and far easier than even being immune to damage on this server. (it was so popular, for a while there was a queue ) Now that we've found the end on this server, I imagine we'll have an XP farm set up there shortly too. So rubber boots will have no advantage with regard to gaining XP if a similar enderman farm is set up.

Which is another thing to what I was saying... some people would go to the xp farm, whack some endermen in perfect safety and go enchant their stuff - some people didn't use the farm. It's there and available for everyone to use, it's up to the individual players if they want to make use of that or not. Some people may consider it not the spirit of the game, some people think it's an ingenious way of using the game mechanics. It's completely up to you.

In addition to this, without the bug being common knowledge, some might never get around to making a pair of rubber boots because they think it's only for falling and they are not playing around dangerous drops.

We've basically asked that a requirement of being on the FTB server is that you're *active* on the forums (because there are a lot of posts about FTB things happening), and they have been mentioned in game a couple of times (especially when people have fallen and died) - they are mentioned in the "FTB for beginner's" thread (admittedly not fully explained though) I just started and we have this post - so if people don't know about them from now on, then it's only them disadvantaging themselves.

[OranjeJus]

Forum posts, comments, and ingame discussions had me believing for a long time it was only falling damage I was mitigating =)

My erm... position? question? caution?, has been this advantage is not gained through clever use of ingame mechanics (like say a water-brake on a sign,) but from a cheap (really super cheap) crafted recipie. (As for hard to make... ok, ok, without defining a scale, I can see how subjective terms like 'hard' can cause semantic disagreements. Looking at the recipe in isolation, without assistance from your peers, it requires finding 3 diamonds, and then finding obsidian, and all the effort inbetween. Finding a sheep and a rubber tree is, in my opinion, somewhat simpler. Were I to write that comment again, I'll say harder instead lol)

I'm new to the Division and wanted to have this discussion on the forums because (while I understand all Divisions have their own rulesets,) my experience previously is that it is un-TOG-like (and thus an offence) to knowingly use an exploit. (And to me a bug this OP is clearly an exploit.)

Essentially, what I'm getting from the thread thus far is:

We're a lax enough bunch that even if it's broken and OP, no one cares. Use em or not, it's your choice. They'll probably be fixed in an update anyway.


- OJ

[Sorontar]

Okay, I'll give my comments as Division Captain here.

Firstly, I am quite happy to discuss matters like this is the forum, as long as there is no finger pointing (ie. claiming a specific player cheats) and it remains cordial. Where possible the community helps define the rules based on how they like to play the game. That said, once discussed, I don't want old arguments to resurface without new context. In this case, it is a new argument and FTB is a new context.

Secondly, the Feed The Beast is still a trial in many ways. Part of this trial is working out how people play it and what rules we need for it. So far, we have removed at least one mod because it seemed to be stopping the server working. That may be returned in the future. Some players play FTB without machines. Some use them large scale. The Admin team has to consider all of that when working out what is best for the division in any changes we make. With so many mods in the FTB, it being "Beta" and so many different mod additions to vanilla Minecraft, it is hard to get any balance for every type of play.

Thirdly, the rubber boots do seem to be a bug but they do have a purpose still in the game. From the wiki it seems that it is mainly to minimise fall damage for IndustrialCraft2. As has been discussed, a question is whether such benefit can be gained from any other item for such a low cost (ie. a recipe that just requires naturally found substances, both of which are obtained using a simply crafted tool). As to whether it should be regarded as an exploit, does anyone know what the mod developer is planning to do/has done about it? We have banned sand creation exploits in the past because we knew Mojang were going to fix them and that is vanilla Minecraft. This is a feature added by a mod pack. Therefore, it is harder to regard as an exploit due to its nature.

Fourthly, the Admin team has various tricks up our sleeves in order to do our job, but we don't want to have look over every player's shoulder. We do care about whether players are enjoying our servers, but until we see blatant cheating or actions hurting the server or the community, we are not planning to set rules. As the rubber boots is an issue under discussion that has only come to light in the last week, we haven't rushed to judgement.

Hope this helps everyone understand better the background from the Admin point-of-view.

Sorontar