FTB: quarry rules

[Obsi]

Again I haven't tested if this exists on our sever, but apparently railcraft has a magnifying glass item that you can craft. This is supposed to show you who has placed a block, and if this is the case the signs shouldn't strictly speaking be needed.

It works for railcraft rails, machines and carts - it does not work for other machines or blocks

Asking people to put a sign on their stuff as a courtesy to others, is not asking very much.

[DaedalusAlpha]

Originally Posted by Sorontar

The problem is that we have too many chunks loaded because too many quarries are not being well managed. This is making a known contribution to the lag in the server. Therefore, in order to try and get the lag back under control, until now we have been advising people on how to better deal with their quarries. However, that has not worked so now we are making them standing orders, where all must do quarries the same way. If lag improves, then we may relax some of the rules. We want to try and stop the server crashing, general lag and players being stuck in game when they approach certain locations. This is removing the fun from the server.

Yeah but my general question was; given that you know what you are doing, can you have a custom sized quarry that does not load more chunks than what a worst case placed default sized quarry would load?

After all it must be the number of chunks loaded and not the size or number of quarries that is important from a server resource usage standpoint? In fact, even two quarries next to each other at half default size should use no more resources than one quarry, provided they are not active (and marginally more even if they are active).

Originally Posted by Obsi

It works for railcraft rails, machines and carts - it does not work for other machines or blocks. Asking people to put a sign on their stuff as a courtesy to others, is not asking very much.

That being the case, I would definitely agree that a sign is in order.

[Sorontar]

Yeah but my general question was; given that you know what you are doing, can you have a custom sized quarry that does not load more chunks than what a worst case placed default sized quarry would load?

You can do many things in an ideal way but the problem is that players don't. We found this out long ago in other situations and its is being demonstrated with quarries. That is why sometimes, for the better of the community as a whole, we have to sometimes step in and make 'simple' rules. These rules apply to everyone in order to make things fair.

Sorontar

[Bazz]

Originally Posted by DaedalusAlpha

In fact, even two quarries next to each other at half default size should use no more resources than one quarry, provided they are not active (and marginally more even if they are active).

Bit of an assumption there don't you think?
I am in no way techy or understand the server side of things at all, but to me it stands to reason that 2 x quarry must have a bigger impact than one - even if both are standard size - 2 x the mining, 2 x the stuff through pipes...2 x engines etc etc.

I'd actually ask everyone to remember that the rules are not to inhibit anyone, simply to ensure that everyone has as best an experience on our servers as they can - no one is limiting what you can quarry (or even really affect the time it takes if you consider that one mine working a 20x20 will do it no quicker that a 5x5 quarry placed four times....) just asking that it is done in a way that will not affect other players.

This is a fledgling experience for us all - most people seem to be loving it, the added complexity is a real draw card - I dont think anyone is saying that larger quarry's are out of the question, just that until we understand the cause of lag lets scale it down and see what (indeed if any) effect it has.

After all oversize quarry's are removed and we see an improvement, I am sure a quarry (such as Daed suggests) can be built and tested - until then - early days folks - and from what I know, I am pretty sure you all want to see this server persist.

Lets get it right.

[DaedalusAlpha]

Looking around a bit I have noticed that at least tekkit servers should have a setting for how many chunks each player is allowed to have loaded at any one time. I assume this would exist for FTB servers as well (it's probably a part of Forge). By default it should be 81, but if you sat this to 4 (which is what I think a default sized quarry will use at most) you could enforce these rules.

And to continue with the discussion of chunks; an inexperienced player that follows the rules can still create quite a problem with his/hers quarry. And here is why:

If the system that handles the output (the pipes and chests and what have you) is placed in a chunk adjacent to the quarry, BUT NOT LOADED BY IT, then I assume whatever the quarry mines will be spit out where the output pipe traverses the chunk boundary. This is not easily solved by rules, one have to have knowledge about how the chunks work.

Actually, thinking about it, I think this can be one of our bigger problems. I happen to have my quarry set up so the unloading system is loaded together with the quarry, but I don't think many others on this server has taken that into consideration. This is why buildcraft pipes works so bad for servers. Check the third reply in this thread: http://forums.technicpack.net/thread...ft-hate.20665/

I hope I don't appear as difficult, it's not my intention, I just want to put forth that the solution is probably more complicated than just limiting peoples amount of quarries. At some stage chunk loading has to be taken into consideration.

[Sorontar]

If players find that their quarry system and associated machines does not work if they are not playing in the area, then they will have to adjust their design or be in the area. We are looking at limiting chunk loading if players are not in the vicinity. That is part of what is meant by "Further server settings may restrict some of the activities of the quarry". However, no-one should make assumptions about any changes until we actually decide to make them.

While we appreciate advice from players, the Admin team has a lot of things to consider as well as incorporating future plans in any changes we will make. We ask that players work with us in the ongoing process to get the FTB server to be more stable. Unfortunately, we can't share all our knowledge of how the servers and players behave for the security and privacy of the division.

Sorontar

[Obsi]

And to continue with the discussion of chunks; an inexperienced player that follows the rules can still create quite a problem with his/hers quarry.

Yes they can. However as you yourself have pointed out on several occasions, the server is often very laggy - So we are taking steps to reduce the lag, by looking at some of the most lag inducing areas. Reducing quarry size, limiting it to one per player and stopping the use of water in quarries, is one step - which will hopefully combat a lot of lag and make playing on the server much more enjoyable for all.

If you could write up a tutorial for people on how to set up an efficient quarry, that would be very helpful to some of the people here.

While it may cause some inconvenience by having these new rules, we have to work on making better gameplay for everyone. We feel this is a step towards achieving that end.

[DaedalusAlpha]

Originally Posted by Obsi

However as you yourself have pointed out on several occasions, the server is often very laggy - So we are taking steps to reduce the lag, by looking at some of the most lag inducing areas.

I think this is a good initiative and I think it will definitely help. I'm just pointing out that there is a risk you miss the main cause if people continue to build quarries (even while following the new quarry roles to the letter) with deposit systems that cross chunk borders. These rules, while a good step on the way, does not take that into consideration.

Originally Posted by Obsi

If you could write up a tutorial for people on how to set up an efficient quarry, that would be very helpful to some of the people here.

That is a good idea, and I will look into doing that
With a good tutorial people would be much better informed on how to place a quarry and it's adjacent systems to minimize server load.

[Deweyoxberg]

Daed, in fairness the default quarry loads one chunk. If it happens to load four because someone happened to stick it precisely on the intersection, that's a small risk that's acceptable (in my opinion) as opposed to quarries that run 10+ chunks with as much piping / flowing water to boot.

[Sorontar]

Originally Posted by Deweyoxberg

Daed, in fairness the default quarry loads one chunk. If it happens to load four because someone happened to stick it precisely on the intersection, that's a small risk that's acceptable (in my opinion) as opposed to quarries that run 10+ chunks with as much piping / flowing water to boot.

Try 20+ with water, just to put it in perspective.