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Old 11th June 2012, 07:21 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Proposal to register an auxiliary Alt?

I'd like to request permission to register an "alt", that is a second Minecraft character account that could be live in-game on the server at the same as my main. My primary intended use is as a voyeur, or perhaps more accurately as a cinematographer for uses such as making time-lapse videos for projects under construction.

I discussed the idea with Sorontar and several others in Mumble voice chat today, and a couple folk admitted that they had already done so themselves in the past by using the TOG minecraft account of another family member. It was also discussed that there are clearly inappropriate misuses one could exploit if so inclined. To avoid such abuses I would be willing to accept a considerable number of established restrictions for such a player, such as:
  • Not allowed in PVP zone... (but might be useful for filming constructions in the PVP-free village).
  • Special player status/color such as observers or junior members have... although it would be nice to be able to interact with the environment for safety rather than having observer-only privileges.
  • Not allowed near the property of other players without explicit permission.
  • Have a special Minecraft player name, such as RophersAlt ... since I haven't created a minecraft account for it yet.
  • Must wear fresh underwear at all times (wouldn't want to attract slimes into the area).
  • ... or whatever other restrictions the admins think appropriate.
I welcome discussion on the topic an look forward to your input.


Thanks!
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Old 11th June 2012, 09:58 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I use my daughters account quite often for filming and storage. I also often call her in to deliver an item like a Fortune pick when needed. I don't see why you would need alt in your name as it would be whitelisted as a junior/alt anyway.

Also running an Alt would just be bound by the same courtesys that we already adhere to in-game. So filming in the pvp zone, hunger games, landscape, is entirely fine and you are very welcome to explore any of my constructions (including my model of the USS Enterprise).

You already know the code of conduct so just follow that
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Old 11th June 2012, 02:04 PM   #3 (permalink)
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If we allow one member to have duplicate accounts, then we've created a precedent and would then need to allow all members to have duplicate accounts, and I don't think that is a good thing.

While it is true that a small number of us have access to our kids accounts, which *could* be used. If it is done, it is done so because the account already exists. Not creating an alternative account specifically to act as a duplicate account to use on the same server. I would hope that anyone who has access to a child's account and uses it, would only be for purposes such as filming, and not abused as a way to give the player any advantage.

It is worth noting that using another person's account to give your minecraft character any undue advantage at all, would be against the TOG-wide code of conduct, and not acceptable behaviour on our servers.

My personal feeling is that (as an example) if you have a friend/family member who is actually online playing, and you get them to do something like tp to you so that you can clear your inventory and they take it home for you.... is obviously allowed but not really within the spirit of the Frontier world (as you're taking away some of the element of danger by not travelling with it yourself).... However logging into another account so you can bring that character to you so that you can clear your inventory, would seem to me to be taking advantage of the access to the other account, and would therefore be cheating. If the opportunity is already there and present, and you use it - that's one thing. If you login to another account to be able to do it, I think that's crossing the line.

Where there is an event that needs filming, there are sure to be several people on the server who can film it, so it would seem that the need for it is not especially high. I can't really see the legitimate need for creating an alternative account other than to be able to film, and I don't consider that reason enough to allow duplicate accounts.
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Old 12th June 2012, 02:46 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Obsi View Post
If we allow one member to have duplicate accounts, then we've created a precedent and would then need to allow all members to have duplicate accounts, and I don't think that is a good thing. ... While it is true that a small number of us have access to our kids accounts, which *could* be used. If it is done, it is done so because the account already exists.
A good point. I would not like to see twice the server load because everyone has an alt in the game. The "Getting Started" forum post already acknowledges accommodation for special case "Visitor" players who are cast as members of the "Spectator Group":
Visitors ..................... Spectator Group (default)
May be granted access on a case by case basis to visit the server however will have no build / destroy rights. Access will be removed after an appropriate period. Prior Visitor access does not grant entitlement to future visitor access or a reduction to any of the above requirements.
Perhaps this is what I should be requesting access for on a per-project basis. That's potentially more of a pain if done frequently -- both for the requesting player and the admins; but perhaps having such a "pain (submission) and review" process is what's most appropriate here. It's certainly better than an outright refusal based on: "no, you're not allowed to make videos as others can and do now because you don't have a child or spouse that already has another account on the server."

I agree I'm setting a precedent -- that's the whole point. But the precedent I want to be setting here is to have an authorized Alt subsequent to application and review for a specific, restricted, transparent, and well-announced purpose rather than setting a precedent for either:
  • I want an alt to make building/mining/moving/fighting easier, or
  • I'll just use the account of another family member to make my videos... because I can.
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Originally Posted by Obsi View Post
Where there is an event that needs filming, there are sure to be several people on the server who can film it, so it would seem that the need for it is not especially high.
On this point I disagree. It took me a week to mine the resources for the Relativitarium, and another week to build it. I dearly wish I had a time-lapse video of both... so much so that I'll likely rebuild it just for that purpose someday -- probably on another server (we've already got one) and certainly not soon.

From a community perspective, I would also have loved to make, or seen made by others, a time lapse video for the construction of the entire Wild West Village. As much as I'd like to have these however, I would not be willing to give up my own construction participation and game-play in order to have my primary character stand in one position and watch the Village being built; and I certainly wouldn't have the guts to ask someone else to give up hours, days, or weeks of their own game time to do so on my, or "our" collective behalf.

There are also production considerations. If I'm making a video, I'd like control over the angle, field of view, lighting perspective, and numerous other details that I simply can't see except staring through the "viewfinder" of the camera.

As an example, consider this cool tent-construction video that was passed around in text chat yesterday...
...and then ask yourself the following two questions:

1) Wouldn't it be neat to have had this for the Wild West village construction?
2) Would I be willing to be the camera man for the multi-week duration of construction if it meant I couldn't play any other aspect of minecraft?

===

There are many ways to enjoy playing minecraft. I'm not a fan of PVP but I sure enjoy the mining and building aspects. I also have a blast doing mapping, as will soon be made apparent. I'd also like to make videos of what I and we construct -- not simply "have a video made". Perhaps the original question I should have asked here was not permission for creating an alt, but rather the following:
I'd like to request permission for having some means of making time-lapse videos of my constructions, and if permitted and appropriate perhaps some of our community constructions as well, while still being able to participate in those projects. Any suggestions as to how I might go about that?
Thanks for your great feedback!

Last edited by Rhof; 12th June 2012 at 02:56 AM.
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Old 12th June 2012, 09:50 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Very good post Rhof, i personally dont see a problem with this. Currently some players have and do use there childrens accounts for things such as filming and i think its unfair to not allow someone without children this same luxury. Just my 2cents on the matter
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Old 12th June 2012, 10:21 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I'll say my bit in due time, but bear in mind that the construction of Piedra Roja has taken almost 2 weeks. I have been taking still shots during it. However, a more coordinated construction project is still on the books for which we have been discussing videoing (see Obsi and http://www.theoldergamers.com/forum/...st-server.html)
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Old 12th June 2012, 10:39 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Very cool! I don't know how I missed this post. I thought I read them all one night while waiting for Enderpersons to spawn. Thanks for the link.
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Old 12th June 2012, 10:59 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Perhaps this is what I should be requesting access for on a per-project basis. That's potentially more of a pain if done frequently -- both for the requesting player and the admins; but perhaps having such a "pain (submission) and review" process is what's most appropriate here. It's certainly better than an outright refusal based on: "no, you're not allowed to make videos as others can and do now because you don't have a child or spouse that already has another account on the server."
That is perhaps the best option. To my knowledge we have not ever had anyone as a "visitor" - I think that category was added as a "just in case it's ever applicable" thing. So I don't know if something like this would qualify, but I suppose there is no harm asking. Your other acocount could be added to the whitelist only when you are filming, and removed again when you're done. However yes, this is extra work for the admins.

Also, I don't think anyone has actually yet used a child/spouse's account to make videos. So it's not like lots of other people are doing it and you're left out by not having that ability. All the videos I have seen from our servers (I believe) are done by the person who is actually playing.

There was discussion on if we ever get a large timelapse build happening, we could have people like myself record the timelapse using my daughter's account, so I would be free to build while also recording the entire timelapse. But I don't think anyone has ever done that.

The thing is, if we're going to be doing any time lapse builds or something that happen to be at night when our children are in bed and/or not playing on the server - there are those minecraft accounts that already have access to the servers, just sitting there doing nothing.... so using them to record any video we might want to do in the future - would seem to be a good way of getting some of the footage while we're all free to build. Which is different to creating a duplicate account so you personally can have 2 accounts on the server at the same time to film your own constructions.

Quote:
I agree I'm setting a precedent -- that's the whole point.
What you're essentially asking though is to allow anyone and everyone to create a duplicate account - risking a huge amount of potential for cheating/playing unfairly, as well as potentially doubling the strain on the server (and filling up server slots with duplicates, potentially blocking access to other players) - just so that you can sometimes film your own creations in timelapse more easily, and contribute to any community timelapse recordings by filming them as you want to, rather than how others may film it.

I'm sorry, but while I agree with you that you having a second account would be a good thing for you, I have to say that I don't think it's in the best interests of the server/community. Because, as I said, if we allow one player to do it, we can't very well say no to everyone else. And for the very same reason you want to make another account, I am sure others would want to as well. Plus there are also players who would be tempted to use their duplicate accounts to gain advantage in play and policing that would be difficult and time consuming.

Think of things like the hunger games, and if we did any time lapse community projects - times when there are a lot of people on the server anyway, and people would be most likely to want to have their duplicate accounts recording videos. There is going to be a lot more lag on the server, lessening other players enjoyment of the server.


You can make time lapse videos of your constructions with your own account - in a fashion, just perhaps not looking the way you want them to. You can get mods that automatically take screenshots for you. You can get a mod that will record on a predefined path you set out (which would surely allow you to record on that same path or in that same spot as many times as you like, so you can maintain the same position for filming). You wouldn't be able to film you building, but you would be able to film the progress of the build.

It's not the greatest thing, but I made a video of the construction of one of my builds, by just taking screenshots and turning that into a video (I wasn't fussed about keeping the same view though, I just wanted to document the building process)

Quote:
From a community perspective, I would also have loved to make, or seen made by others, a time lapse video for the construction of the entire Wild West Village.
Indeed, as would I - I was thinking about that the other day actually, but by the time I thought it would be good - most of the building was finished.

Had we thought about it in advance however, it would have been possible to have done, without you needing to have made another account.
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Old 12th June 2012, 11:49 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Very interesting discussion. All kudos to Rhof for bringing it up on here, there's nothing stopping him actually just doing it, putting it up for us all to discuss was a good move and I appreciate that.
While personally I've got no stake in this I sympathise with both parties. I've got no problems filming in first person perspective but can understand the want/need to have a dedicated "cameraman" account. Also though, the headaches for admin keeping tabs on not just the one in question, but whoever else would then apply in future, I get too.
At the risk of stirring up a hornets nest, could a secure, shared account be used, with minimal permissions, by the Div. as a whole for larger projects? Things like our (TOG) VOIP servers are secure and could also be used to pass passwords and names a little safer..
I know it's not ideal and that it comes with it's own host of complications I'm not even sure if I'd feel safe enough with an account on like that at all, permissions aside, but I'm just looking for a compromise.
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Old 12th June 2012, 01:33 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Very early on I posed the question of having a "TOG" account that could be used by multiple people, or even as a way to bring new TOG members to the division by letting them try the game for a week or so. (this was back when the idea of the game left people scratching their heads, wondering what the appeal was and there were less videos and things online to get an idea of the game)

For security though, it would really have to be something that only one person at a time had access to. If we just had the login details available to all members, then I can see lots of problems. Restricting it to one person at a time means we would know exactly who was using the account at any point in time.

I figured that if the admins are the only ones who have access to the e-mail account that created it, they should be able to change the password for the account as needed - so that only one person (othert than admins) has the password to be able to login at any one time - which should stop former people being able to use it again. I don't think you can change the password for the account by just knowing the password - I think you have to confirm it by e-mail. So that should stop people being able to change the password and keep the account. (though abusing/stealing that account would surely mean removal from TOG, so it really wouldn't be worth someone doing that)

But I don't think Thermal (DC at the time) liked the idea at all. Maybe for it's extra risks/effort, perhaps it would also be a breech of Mojang's terms and conditions (by having a shared account)? I don't know.

At the time though we were just starting out, nobody was building anything really worthy of videoing, and we didn't mods and things on the server we do now.... so there wasn't really much need for having it (other than letting people try before they buy). Now though I can see that for filming special events, it could be quite useful. If we use the "spectator" permissions group for the "TOG" account, it shouldn't have too much potential for trouble in game - especially if its use is restricted to TOG use (such as filming).

So that could be a compromise.... Having one shared account that is able to be used for the rare occasion that extra filming is needed. Everyday type personal constructions wouldn't be something I'd see that account being used for though - as it would be a hassle to keep reassigning the password to different people frequently. So it would have to be limited to more community things.
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Last edited by Obsi; 12th June 2012 at 01:37 PM.
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