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Old 21st July 2013, 03:48 PM   #11 (permalink)
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In all fairness creating a mod is about making something you like, if others want it thats great, yes he should take peoples views into account however reading this it appears that some other modders are tweaking his mod, which means they are interfering with his work.

if people especially other modders are not happy about the complexity he sets, then they should create a simpler gregtech mod, one with the same functionality and machines. however so far peopel have not, as such Greg can do what he likes, and to be perfectly honast, what he is doing is protecting his work, though it is still unethical.
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Old 21st July 2013, 03:54 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Duck, I think one major complaint is that GregTech does exactly what you describe. It modifies the recipes from other mods, and then he throws a fit when someone does it to him.

Either way, Slowpoke has announced the new packs for 1.5, and the pack that contains GregTech is centered around GregTech. It is the focus of the pack. The other packs do not contain GregTech.
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Old 21st July 2013, 07:22 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I think making peoples games crash because you're having a hissy fit due to other modders doing the same things he has done for ages goes way beyond 'unethical'.
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Old 21st July 2013, 08:37 PM   #14 (permalink)
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ya but thats the thing, and I should clarify before I start this, I hate Gregtech's tactics, however people use Greg Tech knowing what it does, to then complain and try and counter what it does does not make sense. I feel FTB have made the right call having a gregtech pack and other packs non greg tech.

the tactics Greg mploys (the crashes) are horrid and should not be tolerated, however Notch/Mojang have removed thier authority over mods hence there is no rules, sadly this is upto each mod developer to do what they feel is right, Greg has not shown to be a trustworthy fellow in my humble opinion, certainly employing methods that I as a user do not like.
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Old 22nd July 2013, 11:30 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I don't know if anyone else followed that thread and/or picked up on it, but there are some people attempting to create a GT-like mod for late/end-game.
However it's OS, so anyone can follow on what's happening.

For the interested, there's a repo on GitHub - https://github.com/Dtroll/FuturologyMod
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Old 23rd July 2013, 03:26 PM   #16 (permalink)
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The 'problem' Greg had seems to be that there was/is some mod(s) that hacked the recipes back in over his personal balance tweaks, thus disabling the configuration options for his mod.

Gregtech has always been about changing recipes, (all recipes) including those from other popular mods, in an attempt to create a resource curve that he has a vision for. He also was 'courteous' enough to provide the option to disable his hard modes etc etc in config files if you wanted to tweak how it behaved.

Then other mods came about that were designed, specifically, to allow his to make the recipe changes, then hack them back in regardless of what the person using the Gregtech mod wanted.

It's not simply a case of Evil Greg here. Unethical response is one debate but it was pretty shady behaviour to design such a circumvention in the first place, and one could (if they wished) impose a similar personal boycott of Tinkers Construct for such unsocial behaviour.



Gregtech is, and always should be, about what he wants, and never about the wider player base. That's like telling an author they can't have their book series end in the way they want, because all the fans really want x to happen. Most people are open to feedback and requests as Greg likely is. But it's still going to follow his grand design and the direction of his mod is to rebalance resources and recipes according to his own vision.

I'm going to continue to use Gregtech myself. I might not get on well with him were we to meet in real life, who knows. I also don't find myself much of a fan of how certain actors personally behave, or even some musicians. That will never stop me from enjoying their work or their art.

Even if you're building a massive wooden mansion, chances are if you have Gregtech installed, you're automating all your resource gathering anyway. If you're not, then why have Gregtech installed? (You're not going to build a Gravi-chest-plate by manually finding and mining all that iridium...) Or conversely modify the config so your copy doesn't mess with wood.


- OJ
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Old 23rd July 2013, 06:31 PM   #17 (permalink)
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You took the words out of my mouth OJ

Hear Hear
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Old 23rd July 2013, 09:21 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Except of course OJ and Duck are incorrect about always making changes available in the config. Just one example is you can not change the Forestry bronze nerf from Gregtech, if your name is Immibis or mDiyo ingame then you can not change the fact that your helmet will break no matter how much you change the configs and you will be wearing a pumpkin ALWAYS.
I enjoy a variety of mods when I play including Gregtech but I want to play each mod as the author intended not just how one modder's mod that can't even be used with out other other mods to support it.

Greg is very underhanded and has left the code in just commented out in case anyone dares change his vision when their vision is different.

And no he doesn't write it for us but we are the end users who suffer when he has a hissy fit. mDyio was only correcting a basic wood recipe that is a vanilla recipe; which affects every other mod in any pack with Gregtech.

As you can make out from my view, I don't see Gregtech as the main focus of Ultimate but as a mod with tools I can use while using other mods.

OJ mDyio didn't 'hack' Gregs recipes he just did what Greg does and over wrote them as the last version of a recipe loaded is when minecraft uses. Greg in his arrogance has code that makes sure his recipes are the last to be loaded so mDyio added code that waited for the recipes to be done. He didn't prevent any Gregtech config from not working other than the wood nerf.

Scataboens

P.S. I do have to ask why is Greg's vision is the only one that is aloud if his mod(not even a stand alone mod) is on a server with 99 other mods? How is it ok for their book endings to not be written how they wanted it? (Not a personal attack OJ just a question that bugs me about what in my eyss is a hissy fit and borderline malicious code.

Last edited by Gedarn; 23rd July 2013 at 09:31 PM. Reason: spelling and adding a p.s.
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Old 24th July 2013, 01:50 AM   #19 (permalink)
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I do not believe there are any excuses for how he behaved and I am shocked that there are apologists for his behavior. Personally I will advocate against any future mods that we support using GregTech as I believe the author cannot be trusted. This is an entirely different perspective from not liking the author and still appreciating their work.

Additionally, in a multi-mod pack I have a problem with Greg being the only 'vision'. If you are building a Greg mod pack then that is one thing, but as part of a more general mod pack that is another. From that perspective I think the FTB 1.5.2 packs have the right idea, assuming you believe it is even acceptable to include the mod in any pack.
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Old 24th July 2013, 12:47 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Edit: Oops, became a wall of text sorry.

That's fine Gedarn, I didn't take any of it personally. We just have distinctly differing opinions of what is going on at a base level. There is no excuse for unethical behaviour. One doesn't have to agree with another's actions just because they understand them.

The story ending comment was an imperfect analogy due to the complexities of other mods being involved it's true. Gregtech's presence (in my experience and research) doesn't prevent their use if you configure it to not overwrite the recipes. Occasionally there's been missing config options, or ones that don't work for a time. But the flip side is that after these occasions, requests were made and new versions of Gregtech released that fixed or added said options.

I'm not an apologist for his behaviour in adding a crash condition to his mod when recipes are changed outside of the mod loading phases. There are more adult ways to handle such a situation. What I am doing is defending the default behaviour of the mod. It shouldn't be a part of the argument and it is. As for trustworthy-ness, Greg isn't the only one who has done something unethical. Everyone has their own line in the sand.

This reeks of one of those 'but he hit me first' situations whereby each party perceives some wrong that pre-dates their own actions and believes justifies their response. TC seemed to think it appropriate to circumvent Gregtech regardless of what the user wanted by forcing the game to load a vanilla recipe back in, and Gregtech seemed to think it appropriate to 'protect' users by crashing their game when recipe hacks were detected. Then you bring up pumpkin heads and helms and I'm sure if I bothered to do research there will be something behind that, and then something behind that. Childish and worthy of recrimination for sure.





You asked how is it ok for Gregtech to be the mod it is, Gedarn. I hope the rest of this post will help you understand my position:

Last version I looked through the configs, everything appeared to be configurable. All the hard-mode could be undone, recipes restored and/or blocked, and machine behaviours tweaked, with even some world-gen of ores configurable. This sort of configurability is to be lauded as you can have his mod and eat everyone else's cake if you wish. It just defaults to Greg's vision of balance. Greg's tech tree is not the only one that is allowed when on a server with 99 other mods. It defaults to the Greg umbrella of balance, but can be tuned down by the server owner.

I currently cannot support the arguement that it's bad or reprehensible that Gregtech incorporates an attempt to balance and tweak other mods to make one unifying tech tree experience. In the past, I've sought such mods across a variety of games where modding is avaialble and you end up with a bunch of fun but uneven mods being used at once. The whole reason this sort of attack on Gregtech and its base functions makes me uncomfortable enough to make these comments, is that I've never heard it claimed that they (wider mod community across all games) were arrogant to do so in the past.

Making balance tweaks to vanilla and other mod recipes and then sharing them is not arrogant or wrong. It is just creative. When I or anyone in a band plays a cover of a song, and improvises an extra or new solo, sings an extra chorus or a tweaked melody, etc then we're not arrogant or wrong. When a movie comes out that is a remake of your favourite film, but scenes are different, events have changed, it is not arrogant or wrong. It is, however, arrogant and wrong to take it upon yourself to crash the game when post-load recipe hacks are detected. I would prefer to see the unethical actions of the individuals involved as the sole points of contention, without all the 'he said, she said' to and fro along with it.

We are only 'forced' to use any mod if it is required to be able to play on a server with it installed. I personally enjoy the mod and it's goals, but I too think that due to the divisionary nature it inspires everywhere (not just in this thread,) it is moving further and further from TOG space.


- OJ

Last edited by OranjeJus; 24th July 2013 at 12:50 PM.
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