Leveling, long or short?

[Reoh]

Recently we've had a chain of posts regarding the leveling experience. In the interest of fostering discussion on this topic (without derailing other threads) I've set this post up for us to consider the various alternatives.

Now for myself, I like a short leveling period. Enough to train players in how to play both the game and their class, but short enough that you can relatively quickly reach the endgame to play with friends; especially when people are joining the game late or rolling up alts.

The reason for this, is the majority of playtime for most mmorpgs players is found at the endgame. Why spend a large portion of development for a level up process that keeps players apart? The only good reason given recently (by McMuttons I believe) was the advancement of a character.

We like characters to grow, but leveling doesn't have to be the only method of advancement. Indeed as some games raise level caps, they're pushing both new players and alternates that might extend a players enjoyment further away from the bulk of the player population.

Taking a page from the FPS playbook, a game like Call of Duty provides for leveling while still letting entry level players the ability to kill higher levels. The advancement for characters offered provides more options in their bag of tricks (the skill of experienced players aside), MMO's could do this too. Adding extra abilities and advancement while still keeping the endgame "level" set. So that any level "endgame" character can potentially get others.

This way everyone can feel like they have a chance and fun in pve and pvp, while continuing to let characters grow and develop. More iterations on the endgame adds depth to the options available for players which keeps them happy, and playing.. & paying too.

[brohawk]

If I ever made a MMO, I would have no character levels. I wouldn't have skill levels either. I also like the idea of players making their own skills, and maybe have the parts of the skills be like drops, maybe, not sure if I like that idea, but it is different. (Ryzom allows you to literally build your own skills, very cool.) Also I would have no classes... be what you want and everything you want.

To make up for the lack of grinding levels, be they character or skills, you would need various story lines. Add to that you would need some sort of arena and world PVP that made a difference, but that had limits on how many territories you could control, sort of like Necromunda campaign rules has. Obviously, there would need to be also a lot of titles, some that would be useful, and some for show. Guild Wars has a lot of titles.

Another concept from GW (and now DDO) would be henchmen that you could either recruit or hire and custom fit out in skills and equipment.

How to make it interesting in the really long haul... well you need more content and nice things to have. And there has to be some point to it all, which is to have fun. For some that is getting a title, others building a city, others crafting cool looking stuff, others being the top of the ladder in PVP, and others building alliances, and to some just hanging out in a cool space with their friends and maybe killing some baddies just because we all want to be a hero.

[Reoh]

Basically everything you have at endgame, without the levels to get there?

[brohawk]

Yeah, I guess that is a good summary.

[roob]

i don't mind leveling so long as i see progress.

Grinding for hours and not actually seeing any form of improvement for a character is not my idea of fun.


i was going to make a huge post on how i'd do it if i made an MMO, but i think it would be soo long that i doubt that even Reoh would read it due to its length


-roob

[brohawk]

I want to see it.

[Bawheidbob]

WoW leveling that first time when game came out 1-60 close to best gaming experience of my life. The 10 level additions in BC and Wrath i found just an annoyance perhaps admittedly as i was not with the main group that i play with on both occasions.

For me leveling was what made warcraft for myself so a long leveling process i would have to vote for though admittedly that does not mean i want to sit in one area killing the same mobs for hours on end.

P.S

Ding 4000 im catching u Reoh

[Dravin]

Originally Posted by RTC

Ding 4000 im catching u Reoh

Congrats :P


~~

I don't mind long levels of experience (XP!), as long as its an enjoyable ride to the next level. While I enjoy being solo in a number of games, there's a point when solo is boring, but many games (such as the Mines of Moria expansion for LOTRO) really pushed solo play, which is fun .. ..but the idea of a fellowship is almost more fun. I like casual play, and I like hardcore play - but I really want to be able to enjoy the game with people.

And as mentioned elsewhere, the initial grind in many games to 50 or 60, whatever the inital level cap is, is hard, but generally enjoyable to a point. Its those extra levels they tack on into expansions that seem to never measure up, and it makes things you've just done, seem ... well pointless.

I'm a fool for gaming, so I don't see me going away from them, I just hope they become more enjoyable.

[KaziWren]

I was hardcore into Lineage 2, arguably the king of the grindfest. Yet, for about 3 years, my husband and I played and loved the game.

Personally, I do not mind an XP "grind" as long as I feel like each level or two I reach a goal. The feeling of accomplishing something worked for me in L2.

After L2, I moved to LOTRO, a completely different playing experience. Leveling up was easy as eating pancakes. The quests put any of the L2 quests we suffered through to shame.

BUT ....

LOTRO lacks a certain... I dunno... real feeling of accomplishment, to me. Here I was, trying to level in L2 (a PVP game) as a 99.9% PVE player! Talk about challenging. Getting PKed or ganked could happen at any time AND if I died I could drop gear - gear I sweated bullets to craft (60% crafting OMFG).

I digress.

My point is I miss that kind of "fear" or "challenge" in LOTRO. So I'm in the Aion closed betas and hoping for a happy common ground for my L2 and LOTRO sides.

[Reoh]

The xpacs on WOW is what pushed me away. I'd already endured the grind to the endgame on so many characters, and having to start over and level them all again just made me pull out of the game. Now if I join up again it would have just kept getting worse.

I'd have been happier with no levels, the new content - and maybe a few special quests in each zone to unlock new skills and/or talent points. In fact, these could be themed per class to provide a different quest line for each.

Now if I didn't want to bother, I could still play the endgame in pvp/pve without the new abilities and "make do", or I could go and get them. but I could play right away and do stuff, or go exploring and get achievements doing the quests in all the zones.

But instead, I'm getting further and further behind, and don't want to "clock in" to keep going.