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Old 10th April 2013, 09:42 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Combining the themes in the above threads, the biggest disappointment of TOR was that it was finally a game that most of the people I knew were converging on. All these friends from other games gave it a play. And it went splat. What a disappointment. I don't see any upcoming games that are likely to have that kind of draw, everyone's gone back to playing different games again.
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Old 11th April 2013, 03:38 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Combining the themes in the above threads, the biggest disappointment of TOR was that it was finally a game that most of the people I knew were converging on. All these friends from other games gave it a play. And it went splat. What a disappointment. I don't see any upcoming games that are likely to have that kind of draw, everyone's gone back to playing different games again.
Yeah, I know we played TOR together. I was in the closed beta since August, the game launched in December? My biggest problem was burnout, I played a Bounty Hunter multiple times to his late teens, early 20's, and they kept getting wiped. By the time the game came out I was sleepwalking/dreading going through all of the same content, I was burnt out.

I see ESO having an already built-in fanbase, the Elder Scrolls is a huge IP. I think the problem there is everyone is going to come into ESO expecting it to be Skyrim Online, how those expectations are managed, achieved, will be interesting and telling of how it will do imo. I played Skyrim on the PS3 and all I kept imagining to myself was how cool it would be to play that game with others.
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Old 11th April 2013, 06:17 AM   #33 (permalink)
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On the flipside, I spend a lot more time doing other stuff now than I did when I was heavily vested in EQ back in the early 2000s, so maybe less depth in MMOs these days is actually a good thing!
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Old 11th April 2013, 07:08 AM   #34 (permalink)
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On the flipside, I spend a lot more time doing other stuff now than I did when I was heavily vested in EQ back in the early 2000s, so maybe less depth in MMOs these days is actually a good thing!
I agree. I kinda touched on that in my initial post, maybe its a good thing that I no longer have carpal tunnel, or drink gallons of Mountain Dew and basically ruin most of my relationships, lol.

But the gamer in me is looking for its next fix.
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Old 11th April 2013, 09:55 AM   #35 (permalink)
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I don't know about less depth being good. While some may not be able, because of time restraints, to do the high end content it is still important. I left TOR not because of the leveling process but because their sad excuse for a PvP lake and the forever broken raids.

Until I hit max level the game was fine but once there I had nothing to do. Now granted I level quicker and put in more time than many. Still if I hit that brick wall at 6 weeks you can bet a bunch of others will definitely be there by the 3 month mark.

I know it's being demanding but games absolutely need to have an end game. Be it the gear grind raid/instances or a sandbox build your empire effect. If neither of these exists or are broken and not fixed than people will move on.
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Old 11th April 2013, 03:13 PM   #36 (permalink)
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I don't know about less depth being good. While some may not be able, because of time restraints, to do the high end content it is still important. I left TOR not because of the leveling process but because their sad excuse for a PvP lake and the forever broken raids.

Until I hit max level the game was fine but once there I had nothing to do. Now granted I level quicker and put in more time than many. Still if I hit that brick wall at 6 weeks you can bet a bunch of others will definitely be there by the 3 month mark.

I know it's being demanding but games absolutely need to have an end game. Be it the gear grind raid/instances or a sandbox build your empire effect. If neither of these exists or are broken and not fixed than people will move on.
The ESO end game PVP should fulfill that endgame grind. As much as some people dont like it, the faction grinding in WOW and other games adds many, many hours to the endgame.

I dont know about anyone else, but my biggest pet hate for games like SWTOR is that you can max your crafting well before you hit the level cap. Crafting should take up as much time as endgame raids and PVP. It wouldnt hurt to learn from games like monster hunter where your ability to gain/craft new armor is linked to your ability to get the materials.

Oh and less depth = bad. Simple to play but hard to master with a number of specialisation options should be the goal for any MMO.
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Old 12th April 2013, 02:14 AM   #37 (permalink)
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I don't know about less depth being good. While some may not be able, because of time restraints, to do the high end content it is still important. I left TOR not because of the leveling process but because their sad excuse for a PvP lake and the forever broken raids.

Until I hit max level the game was fine but once there I had nothing to do. Now granted I level quicker and put in more time than many. Still if I hit that brick wall at 6 weeks you can bet a bunch of others will definitely be there by the 3 month mark.

I know it's being demanding but games absolutely need to have an end game. Be it the gear grind raid/instances or a sandbox build your empire effect. If neither of these exists or are broken and not fixed than people will move on.
I agree wholeheartedly, and I'm going to contradict myself here as I am usually apt to do; my most memorable experiences in an MMO were the times when I raided in a 10-man TOG raid and a 40-man PUG raid. But it was also the most trying time for me on a personal level because my relationships suffered as well taking a hit physically. So while I enjoyed it immensely, there were some nights I had to force myself to login into the game.

When I look at the MMOs that I did play extensively they had a fully fleshed out endgame, PVP, collecting/crafting, a robust quest system, etc. There are a lot of MMOs that hit some of these points, but few hit them all.
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Old 12th April 2013, 03:38 AM   #38 (permalink)
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One thing that always seems odd to me is that all these games have an endgame. Its a bit silly, isn't it? Why should there be any kind of end? I played in a chat RPG where the game was reincarnated every 3 years. Its a good idea. There's so much baggage by the end of 3 years, it worked pretty well hitting reset. Another MMORTS I played used reincarnation. By reincarnating you had higher base stats in the next life, so reincarnation was the only way to improve. Reincarnation might not work for most MMO's - offers too many chances for players to call it quits. But it offers a brand new world every so often, isn't a new game world always exciting?

But aren't there alternatives? Why have a level cap? Its not that hard to design a system without one (or with one defined by the max integer value at any rate). In PvE games I kind of get it, after you outlevel the monsters, what's left. Although, wouldn't it be kind of awesome to have a MMO where over time the monsters level up to match the players? But in PvP games, there's really no reason to have any kind of hard caps.

I guess what bugs me is that its so much work to reach the end game. But if you only like the endgame? The level up grind sucks. What if you liked the level up part? The end game sucks then. I liked GW 2, you could jump into WvW at the very start. The game was the end game. Awesome.
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Old 12th April 2013, 09:39 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Valdis- I think the distinction is more a comparison between Sandbox and Themepark games than PvE and PvP games.

Themeparks have a higher need "end game" by their vary style. You are lead along a great story and grow in power to become a hero. The whole game is leading you along a very specific path and you have few real opportunities to create your own narrative. After this is over, all stories have an ending, you are left with little to do. Even games like The Secret World and Defiance that have a much more open leveling system still have this problem. Sure you are not "max" level but you are at a certain point just doing the same content over. So that content needs to be flushed out and working (i.e. end game).

Sandbox games you create your own narrative and this means that everyday is new and fresh. Some of these have a real minor story quest line but it is less than 25% of the game and is completely optional. The problem is there is few great MMO Sandbox games. Eve is a fantastic Sandbox and people that like it's style play it for years and years. It doesn't have a "end game" as every part can be fresh. The problem is a new player can never catch up to the veterans. You can never earn more xp in a single hour than anyone else.

This is not limited to online gaming either. Look at Minecraft. It can be a never ending quest to build and build. Then look at Tomb Raider. A fantastic story and great controls, but when the story is over so is the game for most.
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Old 12th April 2013, 11:26 AM   #40 (permalink)
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WARNING - Wall of test ahead!!

[QUOTE=Ludy;3809873]
The problem is a new player can never catch up to the veterans. You can never earn more xp in a single hour than anyone else.
[QUOTE]

This is the problem with all Sandbox MMOs. The first group of playes join, som e stay and so go then if the game is good, a second batch of players join and the cycle continues. Each expansion or major content update continues this cycle. EvE is the perfect case study. If you joined today, you would be about 8years behind most vets, and probably need 3 months or so just to get a decent level to allow some freedom. These games reward time and effort but unfortunatey the learning curve increases sharply the longer the game continues as more and more depth and content is added.
For a bonus 20 points who remembers EvE when there was no Tech 2 gear? anyone?

Themmepark MMOs are what we get today. Its a story, for lack of a better word, hat we start, and then end. Even endgame content is a continuation of what you had just completed. Its not new, its the same but different. The limitation of most Themepark MMOs is that you cant change a major part of your game, in order to attract new players, without diluting the original purpose / draw of the 'themepark' and therefore alienating your current subscribers. Not many games get the balance right but those that do, and there is really only one truely successful Themepark MMO, dominate the market.

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I see ESO having an already built-in fanbase, the Elder Scrolls is a huge IP. I think the problem there is everyone is going to come into ESO expecting it to be Skyrim Online, how those expectations are managed, achieved, will be interesting and telling of how it will do imo. I played Skyrim on the PS3 and all I kept imagining to myself was how cool it would be to play that game with others.
I see ESO as the next great MMO. As everyone knows the SRPG following is huge, if they can translate this to the MMO scene, it should be a very very good game.

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Originally Posted by Valdis View Post
One thing that always seems odd to me is that all these games have an endgame. Its a bit silly, isn't it? Why should there be any kind of end? I played in a chat RPG where the game was reincarnated every 3 years. Its a good idea. There's so much baggage by the end of 3 years, it worked pretty well hitting reset. Another MMORTS I played used reincarnation. By reincarnating you had higher base stats in the next life, so reincarnation was the only way to improve. Reincarnation might not work for most MMO's - offers too many chances for players to call it quits. But it offers a brand new world every so often, isn't a new game world always exciting?

But aren't there alternatives? Why have a level cap? Its not that hard to design a system without one (or with one defined by the max integer value at any rate). In PvE games I kind of get it, after you outlevel the monsters, what's left. Although, wouldn't it be kind of awesome to have a MMO where over time the monsters level up to match the players? But in PvP games, there's really no reason to have any kind of hard caps.

I guess what bugs me is that its so much work to reach the end game. But if you only like the endgame? The level up grind sucks. What if you liked the level up part? The end game sucks then. I liked GW 2, you could jump into WvW at the very start. The game was the end game. Awesome.
I hear yah. It would be great if someone came up with an intuitive system that rewarded long time players whilst also encouraged new players. If you can come up with that tell Blizzard, they'll probably give you a job.

Personally, I think you need to give PVP games a hard level cap. It needs to be more about skill then buying (either though time or money) victory. EVE is your best bet if you want level-less PVP, though you will get eaten alive until you can complete 6 months later.

GW2 is/was fun. But to be honest if you jumped in WvW as a level 1 and im on my level 50 dual axe warrior or dual dagger thief you havent a chance, even with a couple of buddies with you. The gap between a level 1 and a capped player (level 50 for GW2) is very noticable. Sure you can compete but its also skewed towards the level 50, it has to be otherwise why level to level 50.

PVE games, I think need to move away from hard levels and use materials/gear as an indicator of status and level. This would reward players who play longer with better and bigger gear, mainly through crafting and looting, and also allow new players to be 'lifted' up by guilds/other players who supply the raw materials to craft better gear. Think Planetside 2. Same damage level for weapons but add in some sort of auto loot/salvage system and allow players to manufacture tanks/aircraft out of this salvage gear. It would add a level of randomness and unpredictability that would be most welcome.
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